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[Music]

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This is GamesItWork.biz, your weekly podcast about gaming, technology and play.

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Your hosts are Michael Martine, Andy Piper, and Michael Rowe.

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The thoughts and opinions on this podcast are those of the hosts and guests alone,

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and are not the opinions of any organization which they have been, are or may be, affiliated with.

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This is Episode 555. 1-2-1-2.

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[upbeat music]

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Hello everybody and welcome again to Games@Work.biz which is hopefully your weekly technology podcast. The one that you listen to every week. My name is Andy Piper. I am joined as often by my two co-hosts Michael Row and Michael Martine, Michael Row. How are you?

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I am well Andy, glad you're back, hope you had a great time last week, and I am also joined by a guy named Michael, Michael Martine, how are you?

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That's so funny. I'm joined by Michael Martin as well. It's amazing.

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I'm so excited Andy that we we're back together all together. You, me, Michael for this week and I am super deluxe excited about all the hard work that you've done about improving our site and getting things organized ready and rocket and roll in here without even speedier downloads and speedier uploads and you're making a face. Why are you making a face?

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Well, I mean, it was, yeah, our listeners hopefully haven't noticed very much, but it's been been an interesting week of migration.

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Yeah.

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Hopefully.

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We've been meaning to move away from a previous host for quite some time, and we finally got to the point of, okay, we're doing it.

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So I haven't written a blog post about it yet.

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I noticed that Michael Rowe has done briefly, but yeah, it's a little bit of a different set up it means that we have a lot more control but

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- Well, just very briefly.

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sometimes it's a little bit too much control so there's a few extra things that we need to twiddle and do ourselves but that's okay we it's a good opportunity to get my hand steady and yeah as you say it's quite nice to see things at the moment zipping along so we're still on our WordPress and with things that will look almost identical which is very much intentional we've got some thoughts about maybe changing things up in the future and we can do that now.

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[laughs]

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[laughing]

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So not not not immediately let's let's let things settle in first exactly yeah yeah.

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Yeah

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Let's stabilize and settle. Yeah. Well, so that was, that was the software part of the story,

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Stay on target

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but you have a hardware part of the story too. In fact, you're using a specialized piece of hardware kit even right now, aren't you? Not related to the site, not really to the site.

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Right, but that's yes, I have a hardware story exactly I

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Not not related, but yes.

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Mean we could we could make it related to the side by forcing me to use this piece of hardware every time I do any

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Administration on the site, but that would just be

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[laughs]

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Irritating there's a company called called Pulupi out of Canada and they have for a while being making these

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[laughing]

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- Which is an awesome name.

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open source Input devices I think they started out with a track ball that you could assemble yourself and it's all 3d printable and so

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The software is all open source. It's using QMK, which is a an open source

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Well originally it was a customizable keyboard firmware and now it's expanded to other input devices and

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They've made a range of different types of track ball including a miniature nano one

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they've Done a few other things I've got to track pad as well But they came out with this thing which had a familiar looking little pointing device

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To some of our listeners who I know come from a similar background to the three of us

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That was very familiar on the old on the old and and on current. I believe trackpad devices trackpad trackpad What it is a trackpad? I'm not talking trackpoint. Thank you on the on the think think pad is what I was trying to say. Thank you very much

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Track point. Yeah.

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track point. No, that's a... think pod.

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Think yeah, so yeah, it's a little

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pointing Joystick that you get for your fingertip in the on the

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that IBM and Toshiba had on their laptops back in the day.

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And instead of sitting in the middle of a keyboard, this one sits like off to the side, much like a mouse, so you don't need to move your hand around, you can just move your finger tip.

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It's super sensitive, so you can do very, very fine adjustments with it.

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And you can reconfigure it.

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And I just thought I needed to get one of those for all time sake, and using it right now, it's quite nice.

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If they would just make a full-on laptop keyboard with that,

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Keyboard with the... yeah.

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that you could plug on top of any laptop and just rip out the old keyboard or for desktop.

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I know Lenovo, I think, stopped selling

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the wired 101 key keyboard with track point.

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X standard keyboards. Yeah, yeah, which had it. Yes, I know. And there's been various attempts to recreate that it for the party open source-ish slash open laptops like the framework and the M&T reform. I don't think anybody's been particularly successful at doing it, but

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and yes, you're right that this doesn't sit in the keyboard. It sits off to one side, but

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It has a lot of the same affordances in terms of the precision.

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The default left and right mouse buttons are behind the track point, so you use your thumb still to hit them as you would on it, and I'll think pad.

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Yes, it's fun. I don't use it all the time. It is a wired device. It actually runs on the RP-24 to the Raspberry Pi Pico chip as many of their devices do.

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So it's not wireless. It does need to be plugged in, but it works out of the box with all of the operating system.

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It's very straightforwardly.

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So if you need a track point to type device for your Mac, you could now have this and it can make you happy

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Yeah, and listeners will remember that my relationship with Logitech has been troublesome, especially with all of the nonsense they want to force onto your laptop when you install there.

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You mean, you mean adding an AI to a mouse driver?

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Right, exactly. All of that sort of thing. The huge chunk of code that they install when you want to use one of their devices.

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Well, long time listeners of the show will know that we normally wait until close to the end to do some media related stuff, but we're all three big fans of the guild and Andy, I think you were the first, yeah, good, well, what is that?

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What's the Guild?

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What is the Guild?

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Yeah, TV show, we all know this codex, Vork, Tink, all these great people.

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Well it was a, it was a, it was a YouTube series rather than a video series, online series rather than a TV show but yeah I flesh a day put together this show as it turns out 20 years ago which is a somewhat terrifying thought but that is what they're, why they're nice thing right now it was a Dungeons D&D or online D&D

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It was a yout, yes, not a TV show.

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That's insane.

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game a group of misfits that had adventures together on the internet and in real life and they're doing a reunion movie they're describing it as there's a Kickstarter that's in under about to be underway you can go sign up and get on the mailing list to get notified when that happens and and help them to growl fund it. I really enjoyed the Guild so I would be surprised if I didn't and enjoy whatever they come out with this time.

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Yeah, and the thing that I loved about it, not only about the Guild, but also some of the videos that the team did afterwards, like, do you want to date my avatar and game on and the others?

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And then my product group used and got Felicia Day to come as host of one of our big conferences.

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And I know I met her and got to talk to her. And I think, Michael, that was the year that you came to the conference. And I think there's a picture of you with her. I've got a picture with her everything and and.

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Mm-hmm, yep.

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Felicia was just awesome and then years later I read her biography that she wrote and she talked about what was going on while she did that conference and the other ones that year and it was so stressful and so negative which I can understand so I thought it was just she's such a professional I really enjoy her as a performer and as an internet celebrity so can't wait to see what comes out of this Kickstarter I'm so excited

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Oh wow, oh my goodness.

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Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that was on the radar for folks who may have not have seen it and there may have been all sorts of like us fans of that show.

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Yeah, so check out the links below.

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We'll have all kinds of things to videos and movies and other connections, so you can check it out.

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And if you don't know about the guilt,

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this is your opportunity to learn more.

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Now, going from one celebrity to another,

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Well, I'm into the mandatory AI segment of the show.

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we have--

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yeah That will never die for some reason

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yeah, we're not going to boo ourselves, but others have.

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And we have an example of waz from

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Apple Themes, Steve Wazniak, who gave a graduation speech that actually had some applause for his version of AI, which was a little bit different than some of the others that came from our Google leadership and so on and so forth.

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Andy, you watch this as well, didn't you? Yeah, a chance to see this?

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Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because there is a series of videos recently in the last couple of months, probably more recent than that, even in the last four weeks of people doing

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commencement or graduation or other speeches, referring to AI where they are generally loudly booed by students. And in this case, C wasn't yet refers to AI.

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But he uses it as actual intelligence rather and is quite interesting. I was talking about it over the last couple of days with a few people and I was at a school, my high school

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- Yes, I love that.

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had an event yesterday for people that donate. And the headmaster gave an

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outstanding speech to the group of us that were having lunch, updating us on the progress of the

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pupils and talked with passion about his interest in this space and how to ensure that youngsters have a well-rounded education, critical thinking, all of the things that you need to be building into education, even as education becomes more and more digital and digitally focused.

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So he also had a phrase that I'm not going to

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include here because it may be something for the future, but got me very excited in relation to what the school is intending to do to help at next year's and in particular youngsters to get to grips with this stuff. So I was, yeah, I just saw a lot of alignment between these two

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two angles around how can we take that buzzword or that buzz phrase and turn it on its head,

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focus on the important part of it which

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is humans, people, actual people with actual brains rather than attempts to re-create human humanity in a different form which is seemingly very challenging and I believe will remain

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of it, love it. And just the season two for all of these graduation speeches be happening,

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there's graduations one after the other right now, so it's been intriguing to hear what so many people have had to say about this and other related advice for young people beginning their careers and moving into the working world after finishing up their university degree programs.

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Stay staying with the AI theme here for a bit and not the actual intelligence version,

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but the artificial intelligence won. There was an article I saw in Variety where Spotify is, and this is not the disco ball, where Spotify is now putting in the approved verify by Spotify for those podcasts that are not generated by AI. So if there are real people talking like this one right here, we would in theory be eligible for said verification badge. Well, maybe they call

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So, I guess the question becomes, how are they verifying it?

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- Yes.

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- Exactly, Anna.

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up a special Google number and the Google voice answers that says yes, this is a real podcast.

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Yeah, because I really, I know you're being snarky, but I really wonder how they do this especially as so many content farms, including Amazon Alexa, are generating content as podcasts.

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All did it for a long time, long time, two years now, with Gemini, right, with...

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Internet times forever. Yeah.

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creating... take this stuff and spit me out a podcast so I can hear about stuff.

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And is it... what are the rules? Is it... no content is generated? Is it... the speakers aren't generated?

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I mean, there's so many things that can be considered AI-generated in the context of a podcast.

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I think this is interesting as well, so I'm glad that they are looking to ban or reduce the

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visibility of AI, exclusive AI generated content, and we'll come onto that in the next piece,

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but I am concerned that this gives Spotify even more power over shows, right? I mean,

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Mm-hmm. Yep.

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as somebody once said, get it wherever you get your podcast.

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is a revolutionary idea, right? The idea of podcast being built on top of an open

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protocol technology like RSS and anybody being able to get them from anywhere and not being kept by Apple or Spotify or anyone else is interesting. And the idea of Spotify slapping a verification badge, having worked at Twitter, I know how challenging that verification process is and people

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[laughs]

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rightly wary of it because of the intrusiveness of some of the processes that happen with it now when it comes to identity verification.

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And as Michael just said, I mean what are the criteria? Are we prominent enough? Are we eligible?

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It says we must meet or the podcast must meet, Spotify standards for authenticity and trust.

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So, I think one for our listeners, keep it on how long

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it takes before, if you use Spotify before our show shows up with one of these badges,

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because I've no idea how long it will take before we get approached or before somebody goes to the effort of marking us as verified and I have no doubt that they suddenly have a massive rush of individuals all trying to get their shows authenticated and then possibly reselling their authenticated feed.

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To people with less, great motives, let's see what happens.

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Yep, and there's there's a whole set of steps. I'm just been looking here while we're talking about what needs to needs to occur. So you're

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Oh yeah, let me tell me what I can spend my back holiday weekend jumping through hoops for the for the people in Sweden I can just do a little dance through through hoops if they want

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We've only been... yeah.

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Yeah, well, we probably don't have enough of an artist profile already on on Spotify to begin with so they're you know

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Sheesh see this is and this is and this is a problem right because it means that it will reinforce

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Yeah, identity management that is gate kept, right?

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Well, it will reinforce the existing meat.

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And this is not me being salty about our show.

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It's me thinking about this in the democratization of content and of access for everyone.

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How visible are how invisible will it make people that don't either pony up cash or have some other kind of existing profile to enable people's content to be discovered and shared and enjoyed by many?

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Yep. So Michael.

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I think people know that we, the three of us, have been pretty chill about our relative lack of celebrity as podcasters over a very long time.

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We joke about it, and we do it because we enjoy doing it, but we also enjoy it when new people discover us.

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And yeah, and let's face it, I mean, we've been podcasting together for 20 years off and on.

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We don't spend our own personal money on anything other than hosting the show.

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We should do a reunion unit. You move it, you know, like the girls.

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Yeah, we could call up Felicia Day.

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Yeah.

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or any other celebrity guests, who joined us once upon a time or twice.

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Yeah, Veronica Belmont, we could have her on because we actually had her on the show.

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Yeah, no, that would be super fun, wouldn't it?

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Yeah, exactly. And we'll promise to hit the big red button the first time.

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Whoo, just giving me flashbacks there, Michael.

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The, I was looking at notebook LM.

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[laughter]

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Yeah, no, notebook LM does this too, right? So it allows you to, yeah,

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That's what I was talking about.

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Two years ago, they started doing it, yeah.

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and I've generated podcasts that way.

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And I've gone through actually interestingly enough, some education and training

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recently that one of the training mechanisms in addition to here's a video or here's something to read, here's here's a podcast for you to listen to.

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And honestly, that, that level of here's a podcast to listen to is kind of annoying because I know off the top that it is generated and not real, right?

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And it's the two people with the banter between them.

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and some oms and ams that make it sound like it's real, but it's not so not my favorite.

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And Michael, you're just talking a minute or two about Amazon, right?

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Doing some AI generated podcasts too, right?

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Yeah, it's almost like I was setting up the story.

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Well, yeah, I mean the Amazon story is slightly different and it's more similar in some ways to what we talked about, Michael Martin and I talked about two weeks ago with the furore and the knitting world around these artificially generated, and it's also similar to the notebook elementing, artificially generated ones rather than people impersonating or attempting to, you know, full people with inauthentic content.

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What about this this tech dirt article Michael around Amazon getting into the they're calling it the AI podcast slop business. So pod slop maybe because we got it. We have to fund word for this. Don't we?

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Yeah, I think it's just so I like tech dirt because they they take a look at many of the topics that we look at but from a legal perspective

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etc. And kind of they can be kind of snarky. So I think they took the the verge article and extended kind of logical where it's going to.

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And so my my whole thing on both of these articles is kind of the there's different types of gates.

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Keepers and Andy you got the right gatekeeper discussion on Spotify and I'm I'm saying and Amazon has a different way of doing the gatekeeping, right?

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- Right.

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You're right, this is great.

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There's a great call out here in the middle of the detector piece, which mentions that the other stories from other outlets,

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the variety in Verge, didn't comment on the best part of the clip that Amazon used as an example,

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which is literally where the female voice software says,

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There's no gatekeeping if you make sense.

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It's incredibly tone deaf and very frustrating.

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Yeah, right. Yeah, I think, and we've talked to Ad nauseum, is that the right phrase I'm thinking of, about kind of the race to the bottom with AI knowledge, ingestion and not creation of real content, and how quickly are we going to get to the tipping point where 80 to 90 percent.

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And this stuff that people are looking for is actually AI generated instead of the real content created by users that adds new value.

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and I just want to look back to the conversation that I had at my school event yesterday,

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and also later in the same day I went to the internet things meet up in London where

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the host which has been running for 15 years and the host said like I'm not ever going to call this the physical AI meet up. As a nod to the encroachment of these terms on all things,

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I saw that. I thought that was perfect.

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[laughing]

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That's bad.

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This, this idea of authenticity becoming something that is valued or the premium I think is really important.

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Now there's a danger that that becomes muddied by people then striving for those authentic verified badges.

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If that's what we put value on, if we value the blue checkmark which you can now buy for eight dollars a month from Twitter for as many boxes.

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you can afford then you're valuing the wrong thing.

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You need to actually build real connections.

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You need to have real opinions.

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You need to make mistakes.

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You need to own those mistakes.

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You need to not be the agreeable and within built bias and nature stuff that's coming from AI.

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And I think I equally, similarly.

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to the author of the piece on tecta, want to believe that these authentic opinions and authentic connections will be valid and can be valued.

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Yeah. I think should be valued.

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Well, and that's a value judgment that we have, which unfortunately flies in the face of people with lots of money and compute power and other things to drive in a different direction.

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There's the truthiness indicator that needs to be applied here too, which kind of pushes folks doesn't it too. This is an authentic human voice with an authentic opinion. And now we're right back again where we started, which is how and who do you trust to verify that.

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If it's, I know Andy offline, because I've met you and I've seen you in person and therefore I know that's obviously an impossibility in our global, you know, reach and the connections that we have now.

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It's a strange problem, and a strange world we're living into, isn't it?

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It is. And I was talking to some older members of the group, the lunch yesterday where they were talking about this challenge, as they see it with young people surrounded by AM,

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IAM models and digital ways of learning, who how do we ensure that they have critical thinking skills when they, all of their knowledge is potentially intermediated by, disintermediated,

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by tech tools and platforms and companies.

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And, yeah, the answer is it's hard. I don't, there is no single answer to this. Isn't the same way there's no single answer to how do you verify and prove that you've known somebody and that they're real short of, you know, meeting them in person. You may, you may not do that in the future, but you can still reach it.

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And you may not have actually met them, because it could be somebody acting as them.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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or you have met them and they're using

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You've met someone who says they were them.

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they're using an assistant or an agent to communicate with you, right?

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Yes, that's possible.

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'Cause that's happening now as well, right?

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You can have your auto email reply, you know,

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which happens already, you know,

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your generator response to the query that you just get.

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I don't know, there's a lot to this and a much, much too unpack as we go forward And Michael.

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Well, there's a point that kind of relates to AI and some of the new accessibility capabilities that Apple is bringing forward, right?

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Well, I purposely chose this article after seeing everything else over the last week on AI because this is positive use.

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And so one thing that Apple does every year right around this time is their in alignment with global accessibility awareness day is they announce what new accessibility features are going to be worked on over the next year, et cetera.

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And Apple's taking a lot of heat for the last few years.

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On how bad their AI story is, how much they over promised and under delivered, etc.

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And what they're showing here appears to be new capabilities in the scope of accessibility features that will be powered on the new AI stuff that they're implementing, or are rumored to be implementing with WWDC coming up in two and a half weeks.

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And what's really exciting is

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how they're using some of the basic AI features of image recognition and other features to improve the accessibility features on the iPhone and and you have a thing.

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Well, I think this is great for sure, and I think it's interesting that these two things come in together.

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I think another way of looking at this is headlines after WWDC is five things that Apple Sherlock took this year, and one of them is Be My Eyes, which is a tool that a lot of people have been using to get assistance, but of course it's wonderful if that is built into the device and you don't need to be asking somebody on the other side or anywhere on the planet to help you.

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We did cover a few months ago, a BBC show with a blind presenter where he went to California and tested out a ton of new tools and accessibility aids that were in this same vein.

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But yeah, I think it is that there are very solid good outcomes from the development of this technology.

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>> Yeah, and so many of these are features that they've been working on prior to this for a very long time that have been very good.

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And I'm excited by these as well.

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They've not been at the level of some of the additional things that you would buy for assistance.

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The more and more that those capabilities get built into the operating system or into the hardware, the more...

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accessible they are for all users instead of having to go out and buy an additional accessibility feature.

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So, the thing that most people don't think about when they hear accessibility is accessibility is not just a feature for people who have some reason to buy accessibility.

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They make things better for everyone.

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- I'm gonna, I agree with you completely.

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I'm gonna suggest though,

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because we're running short on time,

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and there's a topic we wanna talk about,

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especially for one of our listeners,

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and because we're all interested in it as well,

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that we skip over the piece from the Atlantic here,

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which we'll include in the show notes,

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which is about countermeasures to AI wearables.

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So they link you as you go around.

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So I'll leave that one, a reference to it in the show,

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for you to go and come to the site,

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check out the link and have a read.

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If you're able to read links from the Atlantic and instead move on to a link that we got in from I saw because he or friend Ian he prepped back to this on Kickstarter and I get notifications to say you know your friend is just back this thing and I had a look and I believe Michael you had a ping from him as well but this is a virtual world to miss him.

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Yeah, and what's really cool about that, and I'm going to transition back and back forward,

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is I did want to mention the one feature that they added that I had not thought about,

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and I've never thought about was wheelchair navigation for the Vision Pro.

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Because I've been doing some really cool stuff in there, and I think accessibility around movement is a feature you wouldn't think about on an iPhone, and that got me to think about the vision pro which is around virtual reality and physical reality which would have been a beautiful transition into the virtual world history.

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Well, there you go. And as you can tell listeners, as usual, we are on point with thoroughly prepared everything we're going to say to you, and that's how you can tell that we are

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[laughing]

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Yes.

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[laughing]

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No, I love the video of this.

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I thought the Kickstarter is like a really cool thing when E-Pread reached out to me with it too.

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I was like, "Hmm, do I have money to put aside?"

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They can take a dollar, right?

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So, yeah, same here.

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Yeah, it's one of those things that I think I'll probably back because I, you know, I'm strongly care about it, but I'm not sure how much I'll put in here, but my first thought was Ian should be like hosting this thing, right? He should be the person narrating the documentary, right? Or the,

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- Absolutely, absolutely.

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- Yeah, or are they speaking on it?

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or whatever this comes, it'll be the, be the virtual tour guide for the, for the virtual worlds

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I'm still wondering, you know, the, when it's done,

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how, how will this scale?

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If they're gonna make virtual spaces available in the future, so you can relive those spaces,

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how will that scale?

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I mean, it's just in

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an infinite number of potential old virtual worlds that they have to recreate and maintain and keep working on new hardware and new operating system or new web browsers or new web tech now. I mean, there's so many things that pop it down my mind of how can they do this while I'm cheering from the other side saying, please do this, please do this.

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I mean, there's not like a default Kubernetes setup for Apple II capabilities that you just spin up a new one when you need it for for Newton.

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well you say that there's another link we have here just to go to head towards the exit for the virtual operating system museum which is a download you can go get from the virtual OS museum dot org huge multi gigabyte download but it gives you a set of emulators for all of these old operating systems going back to the 70s, I believe here.

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Certainly, really niche systems, as well as much more mainstream ones.

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And yeah, there's no reason why you need one of those, you wouldn't install one of these older virtual worlds on it, I suppose.

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Yeah, the again the the point of the virtual world was to be there together and if you're running your local VM

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Yeah, I think there's an element of preservation of the environments, but also the narration of the stories of the people who inhabited those spaces.

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I wanted to just round up because it was something that came to me during the show.

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We've talked about virtual worlds at the end here, but we also talked a bit about identity in this episode,

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and something that I came across my radar just today was

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this really interesting website which enables you to explore the historical geospatial information about a historical set of letters from the 14th and 15th centuries between traders primarily in Italy but across the south of Europe and as far north as London and it really gave me the... you Michael you were saying how to...

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how do people know whether they've met? Have they met? How... when were these letters being sent?

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How do you know that they're getting to the destination? All of those kind of things?

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These are problems that have existed for hundreds of years. Are these people my friend or not?

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If I've only met them in person once or possibly never, I'm just corresponding with them.

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In an analog form in this case, this is just a really nice visualization that came through my inbox through one of the newsletters I follow today.

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Wow, this is so cool, and you can see Gambini Piero and how he communicated with people in Pisa from London.

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And you can -- but also the numbers of letters sent between these roots is vast, you know, 5,000 letters down to one single letter over a period of time.

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And so, therefore, he's probably real,

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unless there was an AI Time Traveler that created documentation.

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Yeah, phenomenal.

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And nobody sent letters to Germany.

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Ah. This.

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Well, just in this particular geospatial, you know,

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There's a period of time. Anywho. That's all we have time for. But it's, uh, we've been all over the map, which is an appropriate way to end.

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Yes, oh my gosh, look at that

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[laughing]

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Well, if if you want to have your map represented

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Drop us a line over at games that worked up is we'll pick it up the next time and maybe even write you a letter back to to prove that we're real

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Maybe probably not

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And if you need to contact us on, if you need to contact the show as well, you can always contact us at podcast that it's going to work up is, and we have that old-fashioned digital mail system that you can send us stuff to, and we'll, we'll, uh, should be able to pick that up.

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Awesome. See everyone.

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Next time, at Games I Work,

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See ya.

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- Thought this. (laughing)

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[music]

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You've been listening to gamesetwork.biz, the podcast about gaming technology and play.

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We are part of the blueberry podcasting network.

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And we'd like to thank the band, Random Encounters for their song, Big Blue.

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You can follow us at our website at gamesetwork.biz.

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[music]